state that has had a rough go does this impact the rick scott re-elect? he's for a national abortion ban, too. >> governor rick scott, his first year in office signed five antiabortion bill into law and hosted a party to celebrate. we need to do our part to remind voters of the extremism and how republicans are out of touch with their own base. i feel confident we'll get that done. >> put that map up as we leave, this is the map, this is the handmaid's tale. they built the wall, and trapped women in the south where they have no rights over their own bodies. state representative, that is tonight's readout. tonight, on all in. >> bad or slow isn't enough of a reason to get her off the case. >> a new ruling from trumps florida judge, and a quandary for the special counsel. >> the next question really is, what is jack smith going to do?

>> tonight, the slow walking on the documents case and the dwindling options for jack smith. then, >> 30 other banks and surety firms said no. so there has to be a reason why he said yes. >> why a subprime auto lender from california put up trumps $175 million bond. what does he get in return? trumps golf deal with saudi arabia, what do they get in return? us, >> if we don't see the changes that we need to see, there will be changes in our policy. >> new pressure on israel that might actually be working, all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. donald trump lost again in court today, but, his hand- picked judge still left the door open for him to skirt accountability for his crimes. in a brief three page ruling issued this afternoon, judge

aileen cannon denied the ex- president's motion to have his classified documents case completely dismissed, thrown out, under the presidential records act. trumps lawyers effectively argued he had a right to steal the documents containing some of our nation's most highly guarded secrets because he was the president when he obtained them, and he could secretly declare them as personal papers if he was so inclined. and not tell anyone. cannon rejected that argument, that's good, it's an absurd argument. but she ruled in this really insidious way that still gives trump an out, so to speak. in the same order, she also rejected a demand from special counsel jack smith to address the underlying question at hand. can trumps lawyers make that same ridiculous case about the presidential records act to the jurors? can they make the case that he hoarded in his bathroom were actually his property to do with as he wishes? did he have a right to decide which top-secret documents are

his personal property and that such decisions cannot be subject to any scrutiny at all? to be clear, it's a nonsensical argument. it's the literal opposite of the presidential records act in tent and effect, it's not serious. but judge cannon continues to act not like a serious jurist. instead, she is once again bending over backwards to grant legitimacy through omission to trumps twisted and laughable interpretation of the law. so last month, she asked both smith and trumps lawyers to draft instructions for potential jury in this trial, based, again, on that fantastical legal argument. the president has sole authority under the president's records act to categorize records as personal or presidential during his or her presidency. neither a court nor a jury is permitted to make a review such a categorization decision. although there is no formal means in the pre by which a president is to make that

categorization, and outgoing president's decision to exclude what he or she considers to be personal records from presidential records transmitted to the national archives and records administration constitutes a presidents categorization of those records as personal under the pra. again, what this would mean, the argument would be, despite the fact that presidential records act that requires, the states, that everything that the government has belongs to the people, that instead, depending on what the president wanted to take or not take, that would make whatever is his personal. is a perversion of what the presidential records act set out to do. additionally, jack smith was not pleased about that order from judge cannon, which would only serve to confuse and mislead the jury about their role in this case. he called, correctly, the entire argument, unstated and fundamentally flawed. adding, that legal premise is wrong, and a jury instruction

that reflects that premise would distort the trial. even requested that judge cannon ruled one way or another on whether she thinks, again, this is a serious legal argument. quote, it is vitally important for court promptly decide whether the unstated legal premise underlying the recent order does, in the courts view, represent a correct formulation of the law. but here's where we come to the rub, because today, judge cannon pointedly declined to make such a determination. she effectively thumbed her nose at smith's request for a prompt decision, writing, to the extent the special counsel demands and anticipatory finalization of jury instructions prior to trial, prior to a charge conference, prior to the presentation of trial defenses and evidence, the court declined that demand as unprecedented and unjust. in other words, no. i'm not going to make a decision anytime soon. counselor. in fact, judge cannon argues, she might not make a decision until after jury has been sworn

in, and that is the key to letting the guy who appointed her, to the bench, off the hook. because of judge cannon decides to let this ridiculous argument go forward, the president has the power to do whatever he wants, jury, those are your instructions, at that point it's too late for jack smits to do anything about it, because the fifth amendment says you cannot be prosecuted twice for the same crime, and once those jeopardy part double there's no turning back. once there's a jury there. if trump is acquitted because the jury was told a lie about how the law works, there's no way to bring charges against him. that possibility hangs like a potential nuclear bomb looming over all these proceedings, to be dropped by judge cannon at any moment. she's preserved the option of essentially allowing the ex- president to mount a defense that is based on a fundamentally, obvious misstatement of the black letter law. a defense that everyone acknowledges would allow him to

get off scott free. she all but dared the special counsel's office to appeal to a higher court. as always, any party remains free to avail itself of whatever appellate options it sees fit to invoke, as permitted by law. at this point, special counsel jack smith might be left with no choice. neil served as acting solicitor general of the united states, he is now professor of national security, law at georgetown university. mary is a former acting assistant attorney general for the national security department of justice. she's co-hosting the prosecuting donald trump podcast, and they both join me now. meal, let me start with you. i've been trying to understand this, and i feel like i'm 85% of the way there. i don't get the jury instruction part. where does the jury instruction thing come from? that seems early anyway. if they're filing to say you should dismiss this case because the presidential records act doesn't allow the case to be brought, okay, and she says no. why does this jury instruction issue hang over all of this?

>> ordinarily, chris, you would have jury instructions decided at the charging conference much later. what happened here is that judge cannon two different potential jury instructions and said to the parties, tell me what you think of them. both of them were complete misstatements of the law. black letter, flat misstatements of the law, and that's what jack smits filing over the weekend said. which was, it can't possibly be as you were saying, this garbage defense, the presidential records act has anything to do with this, and he asked for her to rule and rule it out of bounds. normally, judges don't have to do that before the trial begins. that's to be sure. but in a circumstance like this, in which the drug the judge has consistently flirted with this defense, you've got to be worried if you're jack smith, and that's why he's over the weekend said, if you can't give me a straight answer, i

may need to go to the court of appeals on what's called technically a writ of mandamus, which we can talk about what that means, but i might have to go and get clarity, and the reason for it is what you said, you hit the nail on the head, the double jeopardy provisions would then apply. basically, judge cannon could say during the trial, i think the pra might apply, let in some evidence or the like and even if she's 100% wrong, as she is, as every legal scholar, everyone who has a law degree, i think, would agree that the presidential records act has nothing to do with it, even if the court of appeals of the presidential records act had nothing to do with it, once the trial has begun, you can't undo whatever the jury does in that room because there is the double jeopardy protection and trump would go free. that's what the dilemma is for jack smith tonight. yes, the ones of this formally, but i guarantee you there's no one in the special counsel's office that's celebrating tonight.

>> i would even lower the bar to anyone that's and 20 minutes reading the internet on the presidential records act, where it comes from and why it exists. i want to read smith in his filing, he makes this point clear and then mary, ask about what his options are.'s office writes, if the court concludes the president has carte blanche to remove documents from the white house at the end of his presidency, that any document so removed must be treated as a personal record under the pra as an unreviewable matter of law, and that, also as a matter of law, a former president is forever authorized to possess such a document regardless of how highly classified it may be and how it is stored, that would constitute a clearly erroneous jury instruction that entails a high probability of failure of the prosecution and the government must be provided with an opportunity to seek prompt appellate review. what are jack smits options, given the order and also the tone of aileen cannon today? >> that's the $65,000 question. this has been so unique to judge cannon all along.

she issues rulings that are really complete or definitive rulings or what we call final orders that are appealable, and that's what she's done here. she said right now, at this point, based on the indictment, the pra does not provide a reason to dismiss, leaving open what we've been talking about. right now, there's not a final order for a traditional appeal. there is the prospect of seeking a writ of mandamus, and to do that, what you're doing is you're going to the court of appeals like you would on appeal, but you don't have a final order to appeal and you're saying that the judge made it clear and indisputable error, here it would be not addressing the legal question that jack smith asked her to address, that there is no other alternative to obtain appeal, and that this order would be appropriate. i think there's another option before going for a writ of mandamus. if i were jack smith, i would be thinking about filing a motion in limine, which is latin for at the threshold, it

means a preliminary motion that usually is filed to seek to preclude the admission of evidence or argument at trial. it's ruled on before trial, so that the jury won't be prejudiced by evidence that is introduced or argument. and there's an obligation under the federal rules of criminal procedure for a judge to rule on pretrial motions where the failure to rule would preclude appellate review. if jack smith were to file a pretrial motion like that, a motion in limine, and she refused to rule on it or ruled against him, he could at that point seek the mandamus. that's a theory i'm thinking that might be avoid some of the problems with there not being a final order. >> what do you think of that, neil? >> i think mary's right, that that's probably where jack smith is headed. i think it's all futile,

remember, judge cannon's order today, this was language that you quoted before, said that she wouldn't resolve the presidential records act prior to the presentation of trial defenses and evidence. she wants the evidence to go to the jury first. maybe she'll change her mind about that, hope springs eternal, but if i'm jack smith, i'm going to file the motion for in limine but then say, i'm going to the court of appeals if you don't give me an answer in the next few days. again, ordinarily you would never think this way about federal judges ruling for the presidential records act. it's, as you said, so garbage like. but she's already had two bunkers rulings last year that both got slapped down by the court of appeals for the 11th circuit, which is a fairly conservative circuit, and so if you are smith, i think you're right to worry, where this is headed. and the justice department traditionally doesn't file writs of mandamus, when i was acting solicitor general i had

authorized them all, i authorized one in my time there, so it's something you do really, really rarely, but this is meeting the standard. >> i'm going to give you each three options and i want you to select from the three. that this judge is a good judge, acting in good faith doing a good job with a difficult case, this is a judge who is pretty new to trial practice as a district court judge, it's her third trial, and incredibly difficult, complex case, utterly over her head, and is making lots of rookie mistakes out of tentativeness, but fundamentally in good faith, this is a judge who is acting in what appears to be bad faith, to stall things or aid the man that appointed her position. which of those three do you think most accurately describes the situation, mary? >> i'm sorry, but i'm going to split the baby between two and three. i think she is in over her head and is an experienced, and i think she's trying to make

herself look like she's being fair to both sides, and what that is doing, really, is giving an edge to mr. trump, and she's taking seriously arguments that his attorneys are putting forward that no seasoned judge, no experienced litigator, no experience the national security lawyer, for sure or legal expert, would give the time of day to. these would have been rejected out of hand without even argument. >> your answer? >> i'm not going to characterize her motivations. i just don't know enough about that. the one thing that really strikes me as you frame up the question, chris, is we have not talked about federal judges this way for most of our country's existence, and we talked about judges. we didn't talk about who appointed them, and who might benefit from their rulings. that all changed because of one person, the guy's name was donald trump. i remember when i was doing cases against him, and we won, he started attacking the obama judge and the so-called judge, and that kind of rhetoric is so

corrosive, i was glad to see the chief justice rebuked the president for that. chief justice roberts saying we don't have obama judges, we don't have trump judges, we just have federal judges. unfortunately, trump opened this box, and now it's hard to put it back. >> neal katyal, mary, thank you both, appreciate it. coming up, i looked at it as a business number one, and number two i was happy to help someone. the latest billionaire to come to donald trump's aid and what trumps latest loan could end up costing consumers down the road, next. and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check. when flares kept trying to slow me down... i got lasting steroid—free remission... with rinvoq. check. and when my doctor saw damage,... rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check. for both uc and crohn's: rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid—free remission... and visibly reduced damage. check. check. and check.

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donald trump's financial situation isn't as desperate as it was two weeks ago when he was grounding in the couch cushions for half a billion dollars to cover the body in his new york civil fraud case. is still squeezed and vulnerable and walking around with a bribe me sign hanging around his neck. he wriggled out of the immediate peril after an appellate court knocked down the bond amount by more than 60%, and gave him 10 extra days to figure it out. before that ruling which came without any real rationale, trump was in danger of having his assets seized if he didn't post bond, new york attorney general letitia james could take possession of some of his multimillion dollar properties, which span several states. just in the nick of time he found a billionaire benefactor to come to his rescue. this is don hankey an 80-year- old california businessman worth more than $7 billion.

he owns an auto services empire that includes a real estate firm, auto insurance company and a rental car company, but his real claim to fame and fortune is as the king of subprime car loans. >> we had cases where people would come in to buy a used car or new car and they have poor credit but they had a good down payment. we decided to carry our own paper. buy here, pay here. somebody had $3000 and we had a car that maybe we were in 4000, we get $3000 down, sell the car for 6000, and then collect their receivable. >> that's nice of work you if you can get it. these kinds of loans are two people who desperately need a car to get to work, but they don't have quite enough cash up- front, so what they do is they end up paying you serious interest rates like you heard, very high fees, and not surprisingly, that turns out to be an incredibly profitable

business. it catapulted don hankey to number 128 on forbes most recent list of the richest people in america, a position he seems to enjoy. >> i can't live without a large boat, i can't live without big houses. what i'd love to have is a nice view. wherever i am, and technology. for the last few years i've been getting picked up in the morning and taken home in a mercedes. >> it was his wife, debbie's idea to use their fortune to help donald trump. they reached out to trumps team to negotiate a deal before a court reduced the bond and trump said he had the cash to post it himself. to surprise the trump team last week revived the talks and asked hankey if he would back the new amount. hankey promptly agreed, he is in the subprime loan business after all, saying his company is charging trump a modest fee which he declined to disclose. and he says he's been a trump

supporter but wouldn't consider himself a major supporter. is never spoken directly to the former president, he did receive a call from trumps son eric thanking him for posting the bond. we don't know for sure why don hankey decided to do this, he's got a lot of money, he likes donald trump, maybe that's enough of a reason. hankey told the new york times, i looked at it as business number one, and number two i was happy to help someone. which is sweet. what you think would happen if donald trump gets back in the oval office where he would make appointments to the federal agency that regulates subprime auto loans, or of legislation comes up that would seek to rein them in or regulate them? don hankey just put up $175 million, he saved trump from the humiliation of admitting he didn't have the cash of having his properties east. what do you think would happen when hankey needs a favor or a favorable policy from a trump administration? this is just one example of the, let's say, shady interest capitalizing on donald trump's financial insecurity. tomorrow, the golf miami

tournament begins at drums golf course. is an upstart league sponsored by saudi arabia sovereign wealth fund, and influence operation controlled by the crown prince. trump organization executives of the direct payments from liv were relatively small, the tournament itself is of course a boon for the business. occupancy is up at the resort where the asking price for hotel rooms more than doubled as the event approached. private chalets to watch the tournament are rented out for up to $89,000. we've got new reporting that donald trump recently spoke with the saudi leader, he led a slavishly pro-saudi administration, the gulf state was his very first international trip as president, which is unheard of. since he left office, this foreign actor, the one that murdered a washington post columnist, was specific material interest in front of the united states government has been throwing money at him and his son-in-law, jared

kushner. on top of all of that committee reporting from the guardian reveals that trumps social media company, another big bribe me stand. which just went public has been kept afloat in 2022 by emergency loans provided in part by a russian american businessman under scrutiny in a federal insider trading and money laundering investigation. there's another figure with money who presumably, now, has the got your of the guy who could be running the government next year. trump already led the most frequently corrupt administration in u.s. history. in recent memory. the first time around. now he's under significant financial stress, personally and politically, he's open for business with anyone willing to shove money in his pocket, and if he becomes the next president. president. td felt embarrassing. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td,

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president biden spoke a short while ago with prime minister netanyahu. the leaders discuss the situation in gaza. the president emphasized that the strikes on humanitarian workers and the overall humanitarian situation are unacceptable. he made clear the need for israel to announce a series of specific, concrete and measurable steps to address civilian harm, humanitarian suffering, and the safety of aid workers. he made clear that u.s. policy with respect to gaza will be

determined by our assessment of israel's immediate action on the steps. >> today, president joe biden spoke on the phone with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu and warmed him that if israel does not protect aid workers and civilians, u.s. policy toward israel could change. it was their first call since a series of israeli air strikes hit a convoy of world central kitchen vehicles in gaza, killing seven aid workers including an american. after the call, white house spokesperson john kirby went to the briefing room to further reiterate president biden's key message. >> what we want to see our real changes on the israeli side. and, if we don't see changes from their side, there will have to be changes from our side. >> within hours of the call between biden and netanyahu lasted for a good long time, the israeli government approved opening another crossing into gaza in the north for

humanitarian aid. the crossing which you can see on the map has been closed since the october 7th attack by hamas in israel. israeli government also agreed to allow the entry of more humanitarian aid through two of additional entry points. all of this hours after president joe biden signaled a willingness to change u.s. policy toward israel. sarah peter wells, democrat of vermont posted a briefing with the founder of the world central kitchen which lost seven workers killed in israeli air strikes. he joins me now. good to have you. first, your reaction to the news we got, the president has a meeting with prime minister netanyahu of israel, and then this announcement of an additional opening into gaza, one that had been closed since october 7th. what do you make of that? >> bottom line, america wants to have nothing to do facilitating what is happening in gaza. this is a humanitarian

catastrophe. number one, i think it's time for the united states to say we will not provide any weapons, any bombs that are being used in gaza by israel. nun. second, when we talk about conditions, the bottom-line condition has to be full accommodation for the delivery of humanitarian aid to the suffering people in palestine. that's the obligation, by the way, that is by international law imposed on israel as a force that is, in effect, occupying gaza. number one, decision that we make, no wait rr munitions going to be used in gaza, and that's what i think the president should say. number two as a condition, we've got to open up and have full opportunity to get that food to starving palestinians. >> i want to represent the israeli government's view on this to you and get your response, because they've been saying, essentially, that

they're not limiting aid going in. and, i think they're skeptical, or they say they're skeptical of the assessment of near starvation conditions inside, and that the ngos are messing it up or the aid is being taken by hamas but they're not the obstacle to people being fed in gaza. >> it's an obstacle when the israeli defense force bombs three of the vehicles by aid deliveries from the world central kitchen. we could call that an obstacle to the delivery of aid. >> you just talked about, i can hear in your voice, some passion and anger about this. do you think other members of the u.s. senate share that feeling, and chris talked about conditioning aid, is there something changing among at least the democratic caucus, your college in the democratic party in the senate. >> there very much is.

first of all, there's conflict here, because in fact, hamas is brutal. in that october 7th attack, was vicious. so we understand the reaction. but on the other hand, the suffering and the overreaction and the indiscriminate use of force as president biden put it is costing ms suffering. we had doctors in my office who were describing to us mutation of limbs of children without anesthesia. that's happening every single day. so what's happening now is very damaging for, of course, number one the residence of the palestinians in gaza. number two, is totally eroding support for israel and international community. three, is eroding the capacity to get to any kind of sustainable peace. it's an understandable reaction, who are we to speak after what we did in our overreaction on 9/11? but the decision, the president

had doesn't have to be speaking to netanyahu at this point. he's going to do what he's going to do. he's a stubborn guy, and he doesn't listen, and he's using it as a point of pride that he's standing up to the president. it's time for us to say, we are not going to have our country be part of what is going on in gaza. we're not going to be sending bombs, we're not going to be sending munitions, and we are going to be insisting that not just one crossing the open but the full capacity to deliver food to starving people be accommodated. that's a condition israel has to meet. >> i want to read to you what senator chris said today. he said, if netanyahu were to order the idf into, this is the point of contention, there's more than 1 million palestinians dislocated from the north into rafah, the israeli government says that remnants of hamas fighters and command structure in rafah, they wonderful ground invasion,

there's contention over what would happen. the americans saying that would be such a humanitarian disaster that it can't be contemplated. he says if they were ordering rafah and make no provisions for humanitarian aid i would vote to condition aid to israel, i've never been here before. if i'm not mistaken, you already voted against that aid package in the senate when it came up a few weeks ago. >> i did. the reason, netanyahu would be netanyahu, and that meant that he would be overreacting. he would be accommodating the extreme right of his party, the settler movement, who have, as a goal, essentially pushing palestinians out of the west bank, and of course out of gaza. netanyahu is hanging onto power by basically this extraordinary over-the-top and indiscriminate

war plan. i support, obviously, the horror that we all have about the hamas attack, and essentially, he's killed, that war plan has resulted in over 32,000 palestinian lives being lost. >> senator peter welch of vermont, i appreciate your time tonight, thank you. still ahead, despite nearly unprecedented economic growth, many voters are still scriptable the biden economy is thriving. so what happens when you ask those same voters to look closer to home? that's next.

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feel more confident with stock ratings from j.p. morgan analysts in the chase app. when you've got a decision to make... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. by basically every medic we have, the american economy is growing but voters don't think so. we have been tracking, for months, this wild disconnect between what people are telling pollsters about the economy and what we know about the economy from the copious data we have. latest such polling comes from the wall street journal which found that 74% of respondents in swing states think inflation has gotten worse in the past year. as the paper's chief economic commentator wrote today, this assessment would hold across all seven states, is startling, sobering, and simply not true. not stating an opinion, this something if hard economic data

counts for anything we can say animatedly that inflation has moved in the right direction in the past year. is not just improving inflation numbers, the stock market is at or near record highs, real wages and real household wealth are rising particularly at the bottom of the income scale. unemployment is as low as it has been and stayed low as the economy has grown. u.s. economy is not only strong, it is the best in the world among peer countries. but the polling does not reflect that, and one thing we've seen is that poll respondents have been, during this period of disconnect, more bullish, something way more bullish about their personal finances than they are about the country's. is wall street journal polling adds a twist to that. take a look at that. the journal is pulling folks in these seven swing states, they asked people in those seven swing states, has your states economy gotten better in the last years? but arizona or georgia or michigan? some people said better, some people said worse, but this

chart shows that far more people said yes. my states economy has improved. at the top there's arizona, 31% more people said arizona's economy was going in the right direction. it had improved in the last two years. there were net positives in all of those states. arizona, georgia, michigan, north carolina, nevada, wisconsin, vast majorities in all swing states said their state economy, the one i live in, the one i do economy stuff in, it's gotten better. the journal then asked all those people, the same people in all seven states, has the american economy gotten better or worse in the last two years? this bar, this bar represents how they responded to that question. 81% more people said the national economy is getting worse. even as they are wildly bullish on their own state economy. quite a contrast on the chart. as the journal road, when it comes to economy, the vibes are

winning. it's not good for the biden campaign. there might be a silver lining, here. here it goes. a few months ago, poll respondents started feeling more optimistic about their own personal household economies. now in this journal poll, they are feeling more optimistic and better about their state economies. maybe it takes a while for the circle to grow out, maybe another three months from now that adds up to a wider recognition than actually yes, the u.s. economy is doing well. cyp3a4 inhibitors. allergic reactions to ubrelvy can happen. most common side effects were nausea and sleepiness. ask about ubrelvy. lakesha: childhood cancer is-- it's a long road. it's hard. but st. jude has gotten us through it. st. jude is hope that you have a chance at life. and it goes such a long way for every child diagnosed with cancer because the research is being

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for mike for most of my life i've been watching in frustration as we've done almost nothing about man-made climate change but also republican politicians have colluded with fossil fuel interests to deny the basic, obvious physics that putting a lot of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was warming the planet. so, frustrating might not adequately describe my feeling as i read a recently resurfaced memo written years before i was even born, a decade before, by a nixon staffer to white house counsel john ehrlichman, in 1969. the memo, written in september of that year, starts off, as with so many of the more interesting environmental questions, we really don't have very satisfactory measurements of the carbon dioxide problem. on the other hand, this very clearly is a problem, and perhaps most particularly, is one that can seize the

imagination of persons normally indifferent to projects of apocalyptic change. the author then lays out very plainly the explain it like i'm five version of carbon dioxide warming. six the goal, but we're pumping more into the atmosphere and the consequences, with expected carbon dioxide rise, this could increase the average temperature near the earth's surface by seven degrees fahrenheit. this in turn could raise the level of the sea by 10 feet. goodbye, new york, goodbye, washington for that matter. he also explains potential ways climate change could be mitigated, including fairly mammoth man-made efforts like stopping the burning of fossil fuels. he advises, i would think this is a subject the administration ought to get involved with. just a few years later, that staffer would be elected to congress as senator daniel patrick moynihan, the legendary four term democrat from new york. here we are, more than half a century later, and finally getting around to the job of

attacking the very problem at scale. that is thanks only to president joe biden signing into law the party line voted democratic bill, the most ambitious climate legislation in u.s. history, after donald trump tried to destroy american climate policy. 20 now is president biden's senior adviser for climate policy, john podesta, who is newly announced in that role, it's good to have you. it's wild to contemplate the basic physics of this have been clear. they go back to the late 1890s in the greenhouse effect was first figured out. you've been in politics a long time, and you have watched a multi-decade effort to deny this very basic physics of this problem, which i think people have given up on by now. what do you think? >> reading that moynahan memo makes me realize there was, once upon a time, when republicans actually believed

in science. that's an important thing to remember. the science has been clear, the johnson administration focused on this, earlier in the 1960s, and what we've seen as a cascading effect of disinformation that's really been brought to you by the fossil fuel industry, and they have, i don't actually think they've convinced the american people, they've just been able to use their money to convince politicians that it's safer to do nothing then attacked the problem. of course, as you noted, president biden, vice president harris rejected that. and passed the biggest investment in clean energy and climate, not just in u.s. history but in world history. it's having an enormous effect right now, as that monies are being deployed. and investments taking place, mostly by the private sector. >> i've covered this for about 20 years, the last few years

has been the most there is to cover on the solution side. i had a conversation with the department of energy, that runs that program office where they're pushing billions out for all kinds of innovative new projects, we talked about it on our podcast. new announcement today of what's called a high risk, high reward $20 billion fund that comes from inflation reduction act, from the epa. what is the idea behind this new fund? there's all sorts of different projects across the government and basically funding implementation or research or moon shots to get us towards net zero future. >> what this is doing, we have a very strong clean energy economy, picking up on your last segment. we want that to spread to everyone, and this is a historic program, the vice president,, vice president harris and the epa administrator today, announced $20 billion of awards to

provide low-cost financing through nonprofit community financial institutions to help people in low and moderate income neighborhoods across the country, and rural america and urban america, on indian reservations, access clean technologies to save them money on their bills. the vice president was in a house today that was retrofitted by one of the grand keys of this money, the money to capitalize this effort, that family had a utility bill of $600 before, it went down to $100 a month after. they are saving $500 a month on their utility bill for a hard- working family. that's a lot of money, that can happen, as i said, across the country. what this program does is provides the working capital these financial institutions, which would be matched seven to one by private sector capital

to give people access to be able to put heat pumps and incentive gas furnaces, electrified their homes by energy-efficient appliances, put new windows and insulation in their homes and save them a lot of money. >> one of the things for folks, maybe you'll notice, the financial conundrum with all of this, we have a bunch of promising and good and cost efficient forms of green energy and weatherization, windows, heat pumps, and the problem financially is that it save you money in the long run and requires an up-front cost. that's the issue. folks that don't have access to capital, they don't have the money up-front, this keeps being the issue for businesses, for households, for everyone. what i'm hearing from you is, this is a head-on attack on the issue. if we can provide the financing up-front, we can help people get over that hump and get to

the point of insulation so they can recoup those gains on the back end. >> exactly. and it takes a short amount of time to recoup those. people in low income and disadvantaged communities have to face a double whammy. they often bear a disproportionate burden of pollution that's coming from fossil fuel power plants, and from industrial pollution, and then they can't get access to credit even though their credit worthy. because big banks don't think they want to loan to people in disadvantaged neighborhoods to do these kinds of things that really help, and help small business in those neighborhoods as well. i think what we're trying to do is attack that problem head on through these nonprofit community financial institutions. that have a track record of whether it's building affordable housing or other programs, they can get into the community, they're well-known, they can help people access

these technologies, and as i said, safe people in the long run. they're going to put people to work in those communities doing that work as well. those are going to be good paying jobs because of the structure of the inflation reduction act. >> those are good jobs, good paying jobs and they require good american labor to do. john podesta, the climate envoy as part of the white house, thank you for your time tonight. >> union labor, chris. >> that's right. that is all in on this thursday night, alex wagner starts right now. >> we do not talk about heat pumps, but, this is the stuff. >> i talk about heat pumps. minor correction. >> yes, i'm highlighting it because you deserve the credit for doing it, this is actually how things change. >> heat pumps. >> house by house, state-by- state, across the country, that's how